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TOPIC: Delay in SSB audio - unusable....

Delay in SSB audio - unusable.... 20 Feb 2023 08:59 #1

  • sq6emm
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Hello just wanted to make sure...

Anyone is working on this bugs?

Or is there some magic way to workaround it? I cannot find anything about it...

github.com/ExpertSDR3/ExpertSDR3-REMOTE-SYSTEM/issues/8
github.com/ExpertSDR3/ExpertSDR3-BUG-TRACKER/issues/564

Unfortunately with such functionality SunSDR is unusable as transceiver and makes sense only as the receiver...
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Delay in SSB audio - unusable.... 20 Feb 2023 09:04 #2

  • Rome
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Hello,
These are not bugs, that's the way ERS works now with unstable Internet connection. With ping 2-7ms there is no delay.
With ping higher than 175ms connection may drop.

In the future, eventually, we'll improve connection, but not very soon.
Роман, Roman
Expert Electronics
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Delay in SSB audio - unusable.... 20 Feb 2023 09:10 #3

  • sq6emm
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Well my ping is is withing 60ms... and the connection is stable - meaning jitter is very low.

Just a hint... wfview (also written in QT) have this problem solved - I know this is different architecture.

Based on your answer I understand that SunSDR was not designed to be used as "remote internet station" in mind but rather LAN SDR, right?

I am dissapointed really (but maybe I was just not reading the product description good enough;()
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Delay in SSB audio - unusable.... 20 Feb 2023 10:50 #4

  • sq6emm
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Ok one more question...
If SSB is not usable... I tried to use CW...
So I connected my key to E-Coder Plus switched to CW... and no reaction... it doesn't matter if Break.In is activated or not...

Well there is a reaction but again after huge delay - this time its even way bigger than 2 seconds.... It is even up to 20 seconds of delay...

Am again missing something?

I thought CW could be SSB alternative;)...

Please help me...
Maybe I should switch to some older version of software?
Last Edit: 20 Feb 2023 11:14 by sq6emm.
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Delay in SSB audio - unusable.... 20 Feb 2023 23:16 #5

  • VK6NX
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sq6emm wrote:
Well my ping is is withing 60ms...
UDP ping ot ICMP ping?
sq6emm wrote:
and the connection is stable - meaning jitter is very low.
And how do you know that (aka "did you measure the jitter")?
Also note, that for ERS you have to apply the combination of packet loss / delay / jitter to define whether connection is sufficient for the purpose.

I do not remember EE ever published minimal/desired packet loss / delay / jitter requirements for ERS as yet. Because of ERS is still indevelopment. But it might be very much possible that 60ms TCP/UDP roundtrip is too high.
sq6emm wrote:
Based on your answer I understand that SunSDR was not designed to be used as "remote internet station" in mind but rather LAN SDR, right?
Wrong.
But it certainly will be a long journey before it will work as "remote internet station over random WAN of your choise".
Last Edit: 20 Feb 2023 23:18 by VK6NX.
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Delay in SSB audio - unusable.... 21 Feb 2023 09:37 #6

  • sq6emm
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So, at first - I am not a newbie in remote station... I have it in place with different solutions for around 5 years now, starting with my own solutions based on my own code just to transfer audio and CAT, then using remoterig, then wfview for ICOM and now started to test SunSDR (which is awsome BTW). I belive that I have some knowledge and experiance in the topic;) I was never having such a huge delay in audio... of koz this is development (buffer) decission...

I use both locations for years - with the same network etc. On one side I have LTE 80/4 Mbps connection on the other side fiber 1000/1000 Mbps.

For 60ms (measured yesterday - dump below from today) - it was measured with standard mtr -u so its UDP based:
dawszy@dawszy-XPS-13-9310:~$ mtr -u 192.168.253.150 -r -c 100
Start: 2023-02-21T10:33:03+0100
HOST: dawszy-XPS-13-9310          Loss%   Snt   Last   Avg  Best  Wrst StDev
  1.|-- 192.168.253.150            0.0%   100   51.1  63.4  44.3  90.9  12.3

For jitter with iperf3 on udp:
-----------------------------------------------------------
Server listening on 31337
-----------------------------------------------------------
Accepted connection from 192.168.253.91, port 47642
[  5] local 192.168.253.150 port 31337 connected to 192.168.253.91 port 40225
[  6] local 192.168.253.150 port 31337 connected to 192.168.253.91 port 54793
[ ID][Role] Interval           Transfer     Bitrate         Jitter    Lost/Total Datagrams
[  5][RX-S]   0.00-1.00   sec   232 KBytes  1.90 Mbits/sec  2.308 ms  0/191 (0%)  
[  6][TX-S]   0.00-1.00   sec   244 KBytes  2.00 Mbits/sec            201  
[  5][RX-S]   1.00-2.00   sec   244 KBytes  2.00 Mbits/sec  1.591 ms  0/201 (0%)  
[  6][TX-S]   1.00-2.00   sec   244 KBytes  2.00 Mbits/sec            201  
[  5][RX-S]   2.00-3.00   sec   243 KBytes  1.99 Mbits/sec  1.435 ms  0/200 (0%)  
[  6][TX-S]   2.00-3.00   sec   244 KBytes  2.00 Mbits/sec            201  
[  5][RX-S]   3.00-4.00   sec   242 KBytes  1.98 Mbits/sec  2.600 ms  0/199 (0%)  
[  6][TX-S]   3.00-4.00   sec   244 KBytes  2.00 Mbits/sec            201  
[  5][RX-S]   4.00-5.00   sec   247 KBytes  2.02 Mbits/sec  0.732 ms  0/203 (0%)  
[  6][TX-S]   4.00-5.00   sec   243 KBytes  1.99 Mbits/sec            200  
[  5][RX-S]   5.00-6.00   sec   244 KBytes  2.00 Mbits/sec  1.153 ms  0/201 (0%)  
[  6][TX-S]   5.00-6.00   sec   244 KBytes  2.00 Mbits/sec            201  
[  5][RX-S]   6.00-7.00   sec   243 KBytes  1.99 Mbits/sec  0.401 ms  0/200 (0%)  
[  6][TX-S]   6.00-7.00   sec   244 KBytes  2.00 Mbits/sec            201  
[  5][RX-S]   7.00-8.00   sec   244 KBytes  2.00 Mbits/sec  0.702 ms  0/201 (0%)  
[  6][TX-S]   7.00-8.00   sec   244 KBytes  2.00 Mbits/sec            201  
[  5][RX-S]   8.00-9.00   sec   244 KBytes  2.00 Mbits/sec  0.806 ms  0/201 (0%)  
[  6][TX-S]   8.00-9.00   sec   244 KBytes  2.00 Mbits/sec            201  
[  5][RX-S]   9.00-10.00  sec   244 KBytes  2.00 Mbits/sec  0.722 ms  0/201 (0%)  
[  6][TX-S]   9.00-10.00  sec   243 KBytes  1.99 Mbits/sec            200  
[  5][RX-S]  10.00-10.05  sec  12.2 KBytes  2.00 Mbits/sec  0.553 ms  0/10 (0%)  
[  6][TX-S]  10.00-10.05  sec  12.2 KBytes  2.00 Mbits/sec            10  
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
[ ID][Role] Interval           Transfer     Bitrate         Jitter    Lost/Total Datagrams
[  5][RX-S]   0.00-10.05  sec  2.38 MBytes  1.99 Mbits/sec  0.553 ms  0/2008 (0%)  receiver
[  6][TX-S]   0.00-10.05  sec  2.40 MBytes  2.00 Mbits/sec  0.000 ms  0/2018 (0%)  sender



dawszy@dawszy-XPS-13-9310:~$ iperf3 -c 192.168.253.150 -p 31337 -u -b 2M --bidir
Connecting to host 192.168.253.150, port 31337
[  5] local 192.168.253.91 port 40225 connected to 192.168.253.150 port 31337
[  7] local 192.168.253.91 port 54793 connected to 192.168.253.150 port 31337
[ ID][Role] Interval           Transfer     Bitrate         Jitter    Lost/Total Datagrams
[  5][TX-C]   0.00-1.00   sec   244 KBytes  2.00 Mbits/sec            201  
[  7][RX-C]   0.00-1.00   sec   246 KBytes  2.01 Mbits/sec  4.753 ms  0/202 (0%)  
[  5][TX-C]   1.00-2.00   sec   244 KBytes  2.00 Mbits/sec            201  
[  7][RX-C]   1.00-2.00   sec   244 KBytes  2.00 Mbits/sec  3.523 ms  0/201 (0%)  
[  5][TX-C]   2.00-3.00   sec   244 KBytes  2.00 Mbits/sec            201  
[  7][RX-C]   2.00-3.00   sec   244 KBytes  2.00 Mbits/sec  3.614 ms  0/201 (0%)  
[  5][TX-C]   3.00-4.00   sec   244 KBytes  2.00 Mbits/sec            201  
[  7][RX-C]   3.00-4.00   sec   241 KBytes  1.97 Mbits/sec  4.509 ms  0/198 (0%)  
[  5][TX-C]   4.00-5.00   sec   243 KBytes  1.99 Mbits/sec            200  
[  7][RX-C]   4.00-5.00   sec   247 KBytes  2.02 Mbits/sec  3.707 ms  0/203 (0%)  
[  5][TX-C]   5.00-6.00   sec   244 KBytes  2.00 Mbits/sec            201  
[  7][RX-C]   5.00-6.00   sec   243 KBytes  1.99 Mbits/sec  3.991 ms  0/200 (0%)  
[  5][TX-C]   6.00-7.00   sec   244 KBytes  2.00 Mbits/sec            201  
[  7][RX-C]   6.00-7.00   sec   244 KBytes  2.00 Mbits/sec  3.475 ms  0/201 (0%)  
[  5][TX-C]   7.00-8.00   sec   244 KBytes  2.00 Mbits/sec            201  
[  7][RX-C]   7.00-8.00   sec   243 KBytes  1.99 Mbits/sec  3.379 ms  0/200 (0%)  
[  5][TX-C]   8.00-9.00   sec   244 KBytes  2.00 Mbits/sec            201  
[  7][RX-C]   8.00-9.00   sec   244 KBytes  2.00 Mbits/sec  3.483 ms  0/201 (0%)  
[  5][TX-C]   9.00-10.00  sec   243 KBytes  1.99 Mbits/sec            200  
[  7][RX-C]   9.00-10.00  sec   246 KBytes  2.01 Mbits/sec  3.386 ms  0/202 (0%)  
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
[ ID][Role] Interval           Transfer     Bitrate         Jitter    Lost/Total Datagrams
[  5][TX-C]   0.00-10.00  sec  2.38 MBytes  2.00 Mbits/sec  0.000 ms  0/2008 (0%)  sender
[  5][TX-C]   0.00-10.05  sec  2.38 MBytes  1.99 Mbits/sec  0.553 ms  0/2008 (0%)  receiver
[  7][RX-C]   0.00-10.00  sec  2.40 MBytes  2.01 Mbits/sec  0.000 ms  0/2018 (0%)  sender
[  7][RX-C]   0.00-10.05  sec  2.39 MBytes  1.99 Mbits/sec  3.386 ms  0/2009 (0%)  receiver

iperf Done.
Last Edit: 21 Feb 2023 09:38 by sq6emm.
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Delay in SSB audio - unusable.... 21 Feb 2023 09:43 #7

  • LA3QMA
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it is stil in beta.

I have been running several FT8 QSOs trough the ERS3 using MSHV and this works great.
I only wish that the TCI could be available on the serverside. Maybe using Radiosync as a "gateway". Then you can control tuners/pa and third party apps can use this too.

Your radio and ERS should be connected directly to your router. I'm not a network guru but if you have a switch on a switch etc this is probably going to give you extra delay.
[disregard this as i posted this almost the same time you replied] :-)

But i guess that when EESDR3 and ERS is out of beta. At some point it might be possible to see if different compression can be used on the "audio" feed.
i.e lower the quality of the audio etc depending on your carrier and usage.
Last Edit: 21 Feb 2023 09:46 by LA3QMA.
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Delay in SSB audio - unusable.... 21 Feb 2023 09:57 #8

  • sq6emm
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I am aware its beta;)
btw switch... in reality is giving you a delay which is not noticeable (if network is correctly done).
We should not forget that today we are using solutions like Teams (just to have the example) where there is video and audio and there is no few seconds delay;)
Delay will always be in place that is obvious...

But just to give an example in wfview (so ICOM remote + waterfall) on the same link it is well below 200ms ...
So it is really not noticable in daily work.

So based on that experiances I was asking what the hell;) koz the difference is just way too much (at least for me).
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Delay in SSB audio - unusable.... 21 Feb 2023 11:50 #9

  • LA3QMA
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QSL on that.

Even on a bad mobile network thingz like Teams works ok.

But now i think both EESDR3 and ERS is sending the complete stream and maybe hardcoded buffering on both client/serve side?. (I cannot verify this)
I guess at some point it should be possible to adjust buffering time for audio etc. As you say everything needs to be buffered and its introducing delays.

The Flex radio had issues using CW via remote and using PA. But this was solved by introducing "TX HOLD".

So i guess there are many places to work to get an optimal setup.
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Delay in SSB audio - unusable.... 21 Feb 2023 21:41 #10

  • VK6NX
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sq6emm wrote:
IOn one side I have LTE
:girl_cool:


sq6emm wrote:
For jitter with iperf3 on udp:
2.308 ms
0.732 ms
And with the above jitter variation (within 5 sec) you call the connection "stable".
:good:

No further questions.
Last Edit: 21 Feb 2023 21:42 by VK6NX.
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Delay in SSB audio - unusable.... 21 Feb 2023 21:45 #11

  • VK6NX
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sq6emm wrote:
We should not forget that today we are using solutions like Teams
Yeah-yeah. How we can forget the laggy shit, which is used daily.
...
So, you seriously compare Teams and ESDR3. That explains a lot.
Very much good luck in you experiments.
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Delay in SSB audio - unusable.... 21 Feb 2023 22:53 #12

  • sq6emm
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sq6emm wrote:
For jitter with iperf3 on udp:
2.308 ms
0.732 ms

And with the above jitter variation (within 5 sec) you call the connection "stable".
:good:

No further questions.

Wondering on the math theory you applied...;)
2.308 ms + 0.732 ms = ~ 3 ms - not close to 5 nor seconds;)
Last Edit: 21 Feb 2023 22:59 by sq6emm.
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Delay in SSB audio - unusable.... 21 Feb 2023 22:55 #13

  • sq6emm
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VK6NX wrote:
sq6emm wrote:
We should not forget that today we are using solutions like Teams
Yeah-yeah. How we can forget the laggy shit, which is used daily.
...
So, you seriously compare Teams and ESDR3. That explains a lot.
Very much good luck in you experiments.

Well yes... - I believe (maybe that is my mistake) that audio decode is done on SunSdr side - not PC side.
Then if you will add audio + scope - like audio + video it looks reasonable comparison.
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Delay in SSB audio - unusable.... 22 Feb 2023 01:04 #14

  • CASDR
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I can tell you from my experience

If I use the EESDR remote option

I do experience more delay.

then If I use my remote software- Splahtop and pass the video-audio thru it even with high bit rates

Splashtop is faster, more stable and I have slightly less round-trip delay- Not to mention it allow me to run anything else I wish to run alongside or with V3 as well- As SDC -Skimmer- decoders and MSHV.- and logging software usually LogHX

connection both ends Fiber to premise- and 1GB down 750 up on average.
Last Edit: 22 Feb 2023 01:05 by CASDR.
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Delay in SSB audio - unusable.... 22 Feb 2023 01:30 #15

  • VK6NX
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sq6emm wrote:
Wondering on the math theory you applied...;)
2.308 ms + 0.732 ms = ~ 3 ms - not close to 5 nor seconds;)
Math theory? Mate, there is no any math theory needed at this stage of discussion
2.,308 is the jitter value from yours [ 5][RX-S] 0.00-1.00 sec 232 KBytes 1.90 Mbits/sec 2.308 ms 0/191 (0%)
0.732 is the jitter value from yours [ 5][RX-S] 4.00-5.00 sec 247 KBytes 2.02 Mbits/sec 0.732 ms 0/203 (0%)

No idea why are you intending to sum jitters value... and what you expecting from this sum.

Hence from the period 0-1 sec to the period 4-5 sec the jitter varied on more than 300% with absolute value reached 2.3ms within the network of 60ms roundtrip delay. Means that within given period of time the absolute % of the jitter in given network is:
- reached peak 3.8%
- not static

"Stable connection" you call it.
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