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TOPIC: SunSDR2 PRO info

SunSDR2 PRO info 13 May 2016 09:59 #1

Hello,

I'm interested to setup a new contest station and I've read favorable comments about SunSDR2 PRO platform.
It seems a very capable transceiver but I would need some info and I appreciate any feedback.
I'm working on a remote environment using the RemoteRig hardware solution (www.remoterig.com) with a TS-480SAT transceiver.
The head of TS-480 is at the control location and the transceiver body is at the remote location.
The remote rig box transport over internet all the necesary connections so at the control location I have a serial CAT, microphone, Speaker, CW Key connection and the connection port for TS-480 head. All is working excelent as I would be in front of my transceiver.
I do have a very good Fibre Channel internet connection with 4-7ms latency and 500Mbps bandwidh with 100Mbps uplink guaranteed.
Apart from the TS-480 remote control, I'm using also on the same internet network connection a remote Afedri SDR-Net with all I/Q stream transferred over internet from the remote location to my control location.
I can see a 2 MHz bandwidth on the SDR Console software without any issues, this is in the same time as I operate TS-480.

So my questions:
Is it possible to use SunSDR2 PRO in a remote environment?
How much bandwidh does it need ?
As it is IP network based, can I connect to SunSDR2 Pro box over internet, through a firewall or... expertSDR software is using some sort of UDP that cannot cross firewalls ?
I think that I can use the RemoteRig box to transport Mic and CW over internet, I can see RemoteRig box as a cable extender for Mic and CW keyer.

Thank you for any suggestions!

Dan, yo3irm
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SunSDR2 PRO info 14 May 2016 06:17 #2

Hello,

so, is it possible to use Expertsdr and SunSDR2 Pro over a very good internet connection (500 Mbps Fibre channel, 4-5ms latency) ?
Reading more from the manual I see SunSDR2 Pro has only a 100 Mbps ethernet connection so I guess the bandwidth used is less than 50Mbps.
Would be other restrictions to run it over my internet connection ?
If I just forward the SunSDR2 PRO IP/port through my router at the remote location, would work ?
Are there any other ports used ?

Thank you!
Dan
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SunSDR2 PRO info 14 May 2016 09:55 #3

  • VassiL
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Hello Dan,
Thank you for your interest in SunSDR2 PRO.
Yes, you can use SunSDR2 PRO in a remote environment.
With good internet connection as your and 4-5 ms you can use SunSDR2 PRO in remote mode with IQ-stream transfering as your Afedri device.
Transceiver SunSDR2 PRO can be used in the next conditions:
1. Spectrum scope bandwidth(IQ-stream) 39kHz -- 2 Mbit/s traffic -- ping time up to 20 ms.
2. Spectrum scope bandwidth(IQ-stream) 78kHz -- 4 Mbit/s traffic -- ping time up to 10 ms.
3. Spectrum scope bandwidth(IQ-stream) 156kHz -- 8 Mbit/s traffic -- ping time up to 5 ms.
4. Spectrum scope bandwidth(IQ-stream) 312kHz -- 2 Mbit/s traffic -- ping time up to 2-3 ms.
Second software receiver RX2 required the same traffic 2/4/8/16Mbit/s for each spectrum scope bandwidth, and total traffic will be 4/8/16/32Mbit/s.
Bandscope up to 80 MHz bandwidth -- 6 Mbit/s traffic -- ping time not critical. If you want see wide spectrum range you should add 6 Mbit/s traffic to total traffic.

Transceiver SunSDR2 PRO can be installed on remote side and connected to router with internet. ExpertSDR2 software can be installed on your PC with internet connection in your control location.
Transceiver with the control PC(ExpertSDR2) must works in one local network with one sub-net. For example, transceiver IP-address 192.168.16.200, the PC should has IP-address 192.168.16.50 Sub-net can be any, but must be the same for PC and for SunSDR2 PRO. Usually our customers used for it the VPN connection between remote and control side. Also should be remaped ports 50001, 50002. Modern routers supports VPN connections and ports repaming. I know Russian customers from Moscow who used 200 Mbit/s internet connection and used this way.

For good working in CW and SSB and for small audio delays, should be used Professional Sound Card with ASIO driver (any cards with support ASIO driver). Headphones connected to Soundcard.
For normal operation should be used E-Coder panel. It connected to control PC via USB 2.0 as HID device(no needs driver install), and gives possibility to fast and comfortable operation and possibility to connect CW Key and PTT switch to E-Coder Panel.

CW Key and PTT footswitch operated directly with ExpertSDR2 code via High speed USB and control SunSDR2 transceiver. In remote mode when you are listening CW monitoring in TX mode, is used local(in the ExpertSDR2) CW monitoring core. It sends monitor sound directly to headphones and at the same time sends CW control signal to remote transceiver (in CW TX mode it's not IQ - it's DOT/DASH commands).
Also can be used 7 open collector switches for control any remote devices - PA, BPF, Antenna swithes etc.
Can be used two monitors for two software receivers for different bands. Can be connected two CW Skimmers for each software receiver for local CW spots and Skimmers will send all these to your band maps to contest logger, which works in SO2V or SO2R mode.
With good internet connection as your --- the customer feels operation like transceiver placed on his table and has direct LAN connection.

If you have more questions - welcome, I'll try to answer you.
Василий, Vasily,
Expert Electronics
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SunSDR2 PRO info 14 May 2016 11:09 #4

Hi Vasily,
thank you very much for your answer.
My concern related to internet remote operation was that ExpertSDR is using some sort of UDP protocol that cannot cross the router to internet.
I don't use VPN as I wouldn't like to add another layer that can cause latency but just forward the ports through the router at the remote location.
One problem that I've encounter is that some software do not support DDNS.
As I don't have a fix internet IP address, I'm using a dynamic DNS from my internet provider, so I do have a remote site DNS name like "remote.site.com" and whenever the ISP will change the internet IP, the new IP will be mapped to the remote DNS name, this way specifying a DNS name instead of an IP address solve this problem.
The issue with some software is that they do not accept a DNS name but only an IP address like xx.yy.zz.ww.
Is it the case with ExpertSDR?
Can I specify in the IP address for the SunSDR2 PRO, a DDNS name like for example "remote.site.com" ?

Thank you
Dan
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SunSDR2 PRO info 14 May 2016 14:32 #5

Vasily,

apart from the above one, I have a number of punctual questions:
1. I have an external GPS reference clock (http://www.leobodnar.com/shop/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=234)
In summary these are the characteristics for the output level:
Output power level (measured at 10MHz, fundamental power channel):
+13.3dBm, drive setting 32mA
+12.7dBm, drive setting 24mA
+11.4dBm, drive setting 16mA
+7.7dBm, drive setting 8mA

Based on these values, can I use it with SunSDR2 PRO ? (I see there is a GPS reference connector on this radio)

2. I usually operate 99% CW and digital modes. Although I have an i7 PC with 16 GB RAM, an internal SSD HDD and the PC utilization is < 5-10%, I don't want to send CW through PC but I'm using an external WinKey device. The WinKey device creates a COM port on PC and all CW requests from different programs (N1MM+, WinTest, etc) are sent to this port as a WinKey port.
Is it possible to integrate this with SunSDR2 PRO & ExpertSDR ?
Does SunSDR2 PRO have an integrated WinKey or some hardware that emulate WinKey protocol ?

3. One of my main interests is contesting so I'm searching for a SDR radio that can give the possibility to use:
- SO2V, listening on the same time on the same band two different frequencies and transmit on one of them
- SO2R, listening on the same time on two different bands and transmit on one of them
- listening both frequencies means for example one freq on left ear and the other freq on the right ear
Are these possible with SunSDR2 PRO ?

4. I see there are phone and mic connectors on the front of transceiver.
Is it advisable to use these connections instead of the PC connections for phone and mic ?
Through the RemoteRig hardware I can transport with minimum latency the Phone, Mic, CAT and CW key connections from the radio (remote location) to the operator location

Theoretically through RemoteRig pair boxes I just extend the cables from the transceiver over the internet.
At the operator location, the RemoteRig pair box will have the same Phone, Mic, CAT and CW key ports where I can connect cables.
Is it possible to use this configuration with SunSDR2 PRO and ExpertSDR?

Sorry for this long list of questions :) but I would like to be sure that this will be a good investment :)

Thank you!
Dan
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SunSDR2 PRO info 15 May 2016 11:00 #6

  • SM0MDG
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Hi Dan,

I know the EE team is busy with preparations for Dayton so I'll give you a couple of answers and then Vasily can fill in the blanks.

You seem to have a pretty good internet connection, but one thing you might want to consider is the coming remote control protocol that will give you the opportunity to use the full capabilities of the SunSDR2 PRO via a normal DSL connection. The remote protocol does nit transport the full I/Q signals. It It picks the part of the spectrum that you are listening to and will let you specify audio and compression quality. It also lets you customise resolution and update frequency on the panadapter and then transfers the amount of data needed to rebuild the screen on your remote PC. This way you can balance performance versus latency to optimize for contesting or other operating styles. This settings can be changed on the fly.

aureliandan wrote:
2. I usually operate 99% CW and digital modes. Although I have an i7 PC with 16 GB RAM, an internal SSD HDD and the PC utilization is < 5-10%, I don't want to send CW through PC but I'm using an external WinKey device. The WinKey device creates a COM port on PC and all CW requests from different programs (N1MM+, WinTest, etc) are sent to this port as a WinKey port.
Is it possible to integrate this with SunSDR2 PRO & ExpertSDR ?
Does SunSDR2 PRO have an integrated WinKey or some hardware that emulate WinKey protocol ?

There is no integrated WinKey chip or software emulation (as in Remoterig), but you can of course add your on hardware to perform this functionality and then key the SunSDR2 PRO in the remote shack or at the radio site with the winkey output.

3. One of my main interests is contesting so I'm searching for a SDR radio that can give the possibility to use:
- SO2V, listening on the same time on the same band two different frequencies and transmit on one of them
- SO2R, listening on the same time on two different bands and transmit on one of them
- listening both frequencies means for example one freq on left ear and the other freq on the right ear
Are these possible with SunSDR2 PRO ?

The SunSDR2 PRO has two independent receivers that can be used on the same band or on two different bands (both receivers has its own SUB receiver that can be listening anywhere within the sampled bandwidth of the main RX). Each receiver has its own CAT control and are seen as two separate transceivers by N1MM, WinTest or any other logger controlling the radio. The hardware is prepared for duplex and the software is going to support this in a future update. Then it should be possible to run SO2R, but for now its SO2V with the opportunity for the logger will see each receiver as a separate transceiver. With the clever automatic filtering you can listen to two different bands simultaneously which makes it possible to have two independent CW skimmers skimming both bands. You could be skimming your run band plus an additional band that you are preparing to QSY to.

4. I see there are phone and mic connectors on the front of transceiver.
Is it advisable to use these connections instead of the PC connections for phone and mic ?
Through the RemoteRig hardware I can transport with minimum latency the Phone, Mic, CAT and CW key connections from the radio (remote location) to the operator location.
Theoretically through RemoteRig pair boxes I just extend the cables from the transceiver over the internet.
At the operator location, the RemoteRig pair box will have the same Phone, Mic, CAT and CW key ports where I can connect cables.
Is it possible to use this configuration with SunSDR2 PRO and ExpertSDR?

I see no problem using the SunSDR2 PRO with Remoterig and then running ExpertSDR2 at the radio site (displaying the panadapter via VNC or Teamviewer). You will do your normal connections and then setup a virtual serial port for the logger to communicate with ExpertSDR2 via Remoterig's serial server. In both ends you will connect Remoterig to the computer instead of a radio. In this configuration I don't believe that you will be able to use the E-Coder controller (really convenient for contesting!), but you could probably use a generic controller generating keystrokes and set it up with the Shortcuts feature of SunSDR2 PRO.

You could also use Remoterig (or other audio hardware or software) to transfer your audio separate if transferring the full I/Q signal over the WAN. But this is really what the new remote protocol is achieving (with more flexibility), to me this makes the hardware boxes redundant unless you have other reasons to keep them in your setup. With the remote control protocol you will be able to use the E-coder.

I am playing with the early beta of remote control here, and its going to be very nice when fully developed and available in a few months.

If you have any questions feel free to post them here or email me.

73!

Björn (SM0MDG/SE0X)
Pileup Communications
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www.sunsdr.eu
Last Edit: 15 May 2016 11:02 by SM0MDG.
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SunSDR2 PRO info 15 May 2016 16:24 #7

Bjorn,

thank you very much for this detailed answer.
It is very good to know that will be a remote control protocol but it is also important to know that this will become reality within a reasonable amount of time.
I'm watching Flex radio for a couple of years for this remote feature but I don't see any news.
Anyway looking at the features and the development process I like SunSDR2 more.
By the way, apart from the 100w output power, which Flex radio is in similar class with SunSDR2 PRO, 6300 or 6500 ?

As I already have RemoteRig hardware for my TS-480, I can use it to transport audio, Mic and perhaps CW key and the I/Q signal will be transported over the WAN until the new remote protocol will be ready.
As an alternative, I understand that you can connect audio, mic and cw key to the PC. I wonder how reliable is this at least for the generated CW.
I don't mind using these connected to the PC and not directly to the SunSDR2 box but I don't know if this will be the best practice.
This way I can connect also the E-coder on the PC at my control location and remove the RemoteRig from the configuration. I believe the new remote protocol is intended to be used in this configuration.

My intention is to build a remote SO2R station so there will be other components like a 2 x 6 antenna switch, band pass filters, perhaps a triplexer. I'm thinking also at microHam u2R, perhaps microHam Station master.
How does SunSDR2 PRO will integrate in this environment, I understand SunSDR emulate TS-480 CAT protocol, is this correct ?

Looking ahead for the SO2R possibility and the fact that SunSDR2 PRO output is only 15/20w, will I need two PowerAmplifiers, one for each radio? I didn't study much about Power Amplifiers but I see some solutions that allow one PA to be used with two radios but the radio need to have an output for TX inhibit (like Yaesu).
Does SunSDR2 PRO have the possibility to transmit this signal. How about the control of band pass filters?
Any suggestions about a PA that will integrate easily with SunSDR2 PRO ?

Thank you very much!
Dan
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SunSDR2 PRO info 17 May 2016 18:53 #8

I've seen on eham forum that during Dayton meeting EE will present and demonstrate the remote control over internet and a web interface solution based on ExpertRS - ExpertRemoteServer.
I would like to know if these solutions do need a PC on the remote location or just the device.
I'm mainly interested in SunSDR2 PRO, for this remote access feature we will need a PC at the remote location or just a firmware update on SunSDR2 PRO will be enough.
And of course would be great if we have an estimated date for these features.

Thank you!
Dan
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SunSDR2 PRO info 18 May 2016 18:42 #9

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aureliandan wrote:
I've seen on eham forum that during Dayton meeting EE will present and demonstrate the remote control over internet and a web interface solution based on ExpertRS - ExpertRemoteServer.
I would like to know if these solutions do need a PC on the remote location or just the device.
I'm mainly interested in SunSDR2 PRO, for this remote access feature we will need a PC at the remote location or just a firmware update on SunSDR2 PRO will be enough.
And of course would be great if we have an estimated date for these features.
Dan

Dan, email me at bjorn(a)pileupdx,com, I might be able to setup a demo for you so you can try it yourself.

Björn (SM0MDG/SE0X)
Pileup Communications
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www.sunsdr.eu
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SunSDR2 PRO info 19 May 2016 16:12 #10

  • VassiL
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aureliandan wrote:
...
1. ...
2. ...
3. ...
4. ...
1. I think +13.3 dBm must works with SunSDR2 PRO. There is Reference input for external oscillators for high stability. But the Phase clearance of the transceiver depend on Phase noises of the external generator.

2. No, ExpertSDR2 software do not supports WinKey protocol. Can be used com-port with DTR, RTS keying, for example RTS - PTT line, DTR - CW key line. All contest loggers supports it - no problem.

3. Yes, all these are supported in the SunSDR2. But in SO2R one of the receivers goes to TX, and second receiver on other band will be blocked - ful duplex not supported yet, but will be.

4. Yes, you can control from RemoteRig box. But on remote side for CW must be used Line for keying.

Also you can use 7 open collector keys for auto band switching in PA or for auto antenna switching and one open collector switch fo PA TX control.

In SO2R mode transceiver can receive different band on one antenna port. Because high speed ADC can receive all HF bands at the same time and has two software receivers, which can works on different bands. BUT it works with one antenna port. Also transmitter in the SunSDR2 PRO has one TX stage and can work on any band. When your contest log send to ExpertSDR2 the command --- Transmit on the first recever's frequency -- transmitter goes to TX in this band. When your lcontest logger send the command to ESDR2 software transmit on the second receiver's frequency --- trnasmitter goes to TX on the second receiver's frequency. You can connect one solid state amplifier or amplifier with automatic control and work with it.

As Bjorn said you, user can use remote working with new remote protocol with ultra low traffic. But I think if you have high speed internet connection, you should use IQ-traffic for control --- not remote protocol. Because wide IQ data exchange gives minimal delay -- about 10 ms. Remote control with remote protocol with hich speed internet gives you 200 and more ms delay - depends on buffer volume.

With remote control protocol should be used additional PC on remote side.
With direct IQ exchange can be used only SunSDR2 PRO without additional PC.

Now we are in Dayton. Tomorrow we will start show :) Welcome!
Василий, Vasily,
Expert Electronics
Last Edit: 19 May 2016 22:47 by VassiL.
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SunSDR2 PRO info 19 May 2016 16:36 #11

Thank you Vasil for your answer.
I didn't understand exactly, so I can use an external WinKey device but I must connect the WinKey CW out to SunSDR2 PRO back-end connector and this should be configured for a straight key input, correct ?
I have also two related questions:
1. Does ExpertSDR2 support a DNS name instead of a numerical IP
2. I see that you have to click on a Search button to find the SDR hardware, does this use some sort of UDP protocol or it tries to connect directly to the IP specified in the configuration ?
This is important to know because in case of UDP protocol I cannot access a remote (over Internet) SDRPRO2 and I'm forced to use a VPN solution.
If the SDR search goes directly to the specified IP address, it should be no problem to connect over internet without a VPN configured.

Thank you and Good Luck at Dayton!
73, Dan
Last Edit: 19 May 2016 16:37 by aureliandan.
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SunSDR2 PRO info 23 May 2016 00:35 #12

  • VassiL
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Thank you Dan, all was great!
I should check it from my programmers. Can do it Wednesday.
Василий, Vasily,
Expert Electronics
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SunSDR2 PRO info 31 May 2016 12:20 #13

I've downloaded ExpertSDR software and I see no possibility to add a DNS name for SunSDR2 PRO, only an IP address.
I'm still interested to know if the software is using UDP protocol to find the SunSDR2 hardware or is this a direct TCP connection to the specified IP.

- I see the documentation specify 15V for SunSDR2 Pro, does it work also at 13.8V ? What are the drawbacks if I use 13.8 V?
- Do you have a recommendation for a good headset that can be used with SunSDR2 PRO ?

Thank you !
73, Dan
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SunSDR2 PRO info 31 May 2016 12:36 #14

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I asked our programmer, he said that now can be used only IP address, no possibility to use dns address. But it's only first step, next step - dns support.
15V power supply used for calibration output power and for adjusting transistors offset. If is used 13.8V power supply, maximum output power will be decreased to 15-17W. Linearity will be ok - info from our customer.
Can be used any headset with 16-32 Ohm impedance. Most of all PC headset can be used, and others with this impedance.
Василий, Vasily,
Expert Electronics
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SunSDR2 PRO info 31 May 2016 12:45 #15

Thanks Vasily for info.
I will need only 5-8W for Elecraft KXPA100 so it should be ok.

What about the protocol used to discover the SunSDR2 PRO hardware, is it UDP or TCP ?
Still need to know if I can connect through internet or should I setup a VPN over internet between locations.

Thanks
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