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ТЕМА: Single Paddle CW Keying

Single Paddle CW Keying 29 Апр 2021 14:54 #1

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For many of us that want to use the radio's built in keyer with a single paddle key, we have to go out and buy a keyer like winkeyer or nanokeyer, which is a pain. In eesdr3, please allow a choice of keying method beyond a hand key and iambic.... also any added choices should be useable without having to enable break in as many traffic operators use a foot pedal for tx. Using a single paddle key with my Sunsdr2DX is nearly impossible without the use of an external keyer that allows for single paddle operation.
Thanks,
Ed W2PH
Последнее редактирование: 29 Апр 2021 14:59 от W2PH. Причина: typo
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Single Paddle CW Keying 29 Апр 2021 21:52 #2

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I cannot say for everyone, but (even in ESDR2) I personally found the way of how CW keying implemented is extremely flexile.

Not sure why do you think you need winkeyer (or similar). All what devices like winkeyer add into ESDR - is unnecessary complexity.

Most SDR users I know, these days are using a combination of hand/iambic and/or software generated keying (dependent of what is the target). SW generated keying is supported in most TCI-compatible Logs. Alternatively (for Windows) look for TCI Macro by IW7DMH in Other Software section at the EE web site.
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Single Paddle CW Keying 03 Май 2021 21:33 #3

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It is flexible but it is impossible to use a single paddle with the current keyer software in eesdr2. Iambic keying A or B does not work well with a single paddle. The winkeyer provides a single paddle solution that the eesdr2 does not. I agree it is better not to add other hardware, but until the software supports single paddle keys, we single paddle hams have no choice other than to not use CW :-)
73
Ed W2PH
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Single Paddle CW Keying 03 Май 2021 22:41 #4

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I understand your point, Ed.

There are, actually, two key point.

On one hand - (I am not sure about you, works for me though) I feel very frustrated that I cannot use step walking in upstairs everywhere. I have forced to use escalators in many places these days. Indeed, this situation limits my free will to die from hypothermia instead of extra weight.

On the other hand - if I desire to use vintage Morse/Telegraph Military Army hand vertical key of early 1930th, I would, perhaps, choose Marconi model 136, or 238 or something same level authentic. Alternatively nothing stops me to use (for example) Arduino Nano and TCI "Tone" command to connect the above key and SunSDR. If you are not flexible with Arduino as yet - we have heaps of really crazy people here in local third party developers community; hence, someone perhaps may help you.

There is also third point. It is really not important, because it is my private religious believe. But if it will come to implement into ESDR the way to make "dash" from 5 to 15 times longer than "dots" and make "dots" to sound like "sneezing bark" - I will be against :nea:
Последнее редактирование: 03 Май 2021 22:41 от VK6NX.
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Single Paddle CW Keying 04 Май 2021 15:36 #5

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Hi Ed,

where are connected your speakers/headphones? To the computer audio jack or to the radio headphone jack?
Also how do you key the rig?

73' Enzo
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Single Paddle CW Keying 04 Май 2021 16:51 #6

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My speakers are connected through my surround sound system that is tied to my pc's digital audio out (HDMI) My headphones are plugged into the front panel headphone jack
73
Ed W2PH
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Single Paddle CW Keying 04 Май 2021 18:36 #7

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Well,
I suspect the big issue is when you listen to the code from the computer while listening from the headphone everything should be fine.
I use only mono keys and my code is almost good.Keys are connected to the SunSDR Key jack and I listen from the speakers connected straight to the rig phones jack.
You can clearly feel the delay between PC and rig using a speaker with double lineinput (like my Bose Companion 2 Serie III). Listening from the computer the code is out of sync with my manipulation.
When I work remotely, I listen from the computer, but the key is connected to the comupter as well. In such a case I don't feel any delay.

I hope this can help
73' Enzo
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Single Paddle CW Keying 04 Май 2021 18:56 #8

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Enzo,
Now why didnt I think of that LOL? The delay through my pc audio system caused me to react to slowly adding extra dits and dahs since it was delayed. The headphone jack audio get rid of almost all the delay. At least I can now run CW again and not sound like a WWII shipboard radio operator.
Thanks,
Ed W2PH
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Single Paddle CW Keying 05 Май 2021 12:07 #9

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Ed,
Can you explain what settings you take advantage of using the Winkeyer that results in better single paddle operation? A mode selection? Or fine tuning some setting? I don't understand why the Iambic options won't work well. Perhaps it is a matter of code speed?
Thanks,
Doug
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Single Paddle CW Keying 05 Май 2021 16:45 #10

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Doug,
Seems like the USPS is playing with my winkeyer as it wont be here until as late as Monday. The main problem I discovered, with Enzo's help above, was that I seldom use headphones and the SDR2DX outputs audio into my stereo system via HDMI. The added delay causes me to send extra dits and dahs and was having me going nutz and thinking it was a keyer issue. The Winkeyer gives me the ability to have real time sidetone{pitch adjustable) with no delays when I am not using the front panel headphone jack for my headphones but rather the stereo system. Now I will be able to turn the monitor volume on the rig all the way down. The other benefit is the total integration with N1MM+ allowing for macros to be created from the pc, stored in winkeyer and sent to the rig. Now if only N1MM guys would get TCI interface added :-)
Cheers,
Ed W2PH
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Single Paddle CW Keying 05 Май 2021 17:23 #11

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Got it. Now that I understand! I have not tried CW with the Sun yet, but with the Anan there is an option to get a FW generated sidetone with zero latency in semi-breakin mode. Any latency will drive you nuts for sure. Whether you are trying to monitor your voice audio, or CW sidetone, the latency has to be near zero for must of our brains to deal with.
Doug
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Single Paddle CW Keying 06 Май 2021 11:08 #12

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Gents, I think you overcomplicating the stuff again.

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The absolute most problems heard about CW and SunSDR2 are clearly not related to SunSDR itself, neither to ESDR2, but to user setup. And the most mistake user is doing while setting up CW with SunSDR - is creating setup with to big unequal path for "key" and "controlling sound", introducing significant delay between signals. (BTW, Enzo told you that few posts above, but it seems he was not heard).

Please note that there is a difference when setting up CW with SunSDR in hand (keyer) or auto (any kind of "automated") mode.

When it comes to hand CW operations. The easiest way for SunSDR newbee to understand how to setup CW with SunSDR correctly is to use "single device" connectivity rule. Either:
  • Option1 (preferred) - connect keyer to SunSDR key jack AND connect headphones to SunSDR HP jack
or
  • Option2 - connect keyer and headphones via PC.

Please note that Option2 has "variations". While entering "variations" field, the absolute prerequisite for the user would be "know what I am doing". If you "do not know" and use "guess (or 'lets try', or any other guesstimate approach) the most likely outcome will be hours spent for nothing, ending up in panic posts in forums.

Please note two significant parameters we are dealling while setting up CW with SunSDR: signal delay (between key-in and controlling audio) and signal path (for each - key signal and controlling audio signal). The ideal is to keep both - delay and paths - to minimum. Choosing Option 1 gives you both parameters in absolutely minimal achievable values for SunSDR ecosystem. Due to individual shack setup Option 1 may be not achievable (it is understood, common and does not require further expansion).

Setting up Option 2 requires you to find the way to keep both parameters to as minimum as possible and try to not cross the absolute threshold of hearing (ATH) line (which is individual dependent and resides in between 20-200ms). The problem is that PC manufacturers do not give you the information about the delay (in ms) for their products (i.e. Sound Cards, HDMI controllers, Headphones, Sound systems, etc), hence in most cases there is a guess instead of figure. However what you can be sure - longer path for the signal causes bigger delay.

Please note that in most connectivity scenarios the "key signal path" will always be shorter than "sound signal path", introducing delay anyway. If the delay between "key" and "sound" is above user individual ATH sencitivity - that is when the missmatch is heard. Most newbies in SunSDR world are mistakenly identifying this mismatch as SunSDR problem. Fortunately, most "correct" connectivity scenarios are below ATH.

Please note that there is no unified recepy how to setup Option 2 (it is for Option 1 though). We all have different PC, headphones, wires, loggers and other systems in line.
If you have chosen guesstimate way to setup Option 2 and have achieved predicted outcome already, then please think about the following option:
- Analyse your setup for "key signal" and "sound signal"
- Try to find weak points and eliminate them. It can be even wire connector, by experience. It can be slow/old codec in you sound card. It can be too many digital conversions.
- if nothigs helps, post your setup in this forum and explain the symptoms - this would be most productive way.

And try to understand - SunSDR has very flexible and simple design for CW. Perhaps, CW is the only part of SunSDR desing, which did not require any changes already for years. And it can certainly haldle most of imaginable connectivity scenarios. All it requires is the user who knows what he is doing.

Hope that helps.
Последнее редактирование: 06 Май 2021 11:10 от VK6NX.
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Single Paddle CW Keying 06 Май 2021 12:55 #13

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I fully agree ....
And working CW with SUNSDR2pro is pure pleasure...
Comparing to other RIGs I owned is one or two steps up...
I just love it. :-)
73 Pibo S58WW
2 X SUNSDR2pro
Main shack PC:
AMD RYZEN 7 2700 (8 cores ; 16 threads) 32 GB RAM
on Gigabyte Aorus Elite B450 with 1TB and 250 GB INTEL NVMe M.2
NVIDIA GeForce GTX 1660 SUPER
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